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Staged Animal Fight (Lion vs. Tiger)
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bvjmama2
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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 209
Location: Dreaming the big dream... No more animal abuse

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
vlad wrote:
OK Abby,



#10. Is a Lion stronger than a tiger?



1. Some tigers, such as the sumatran or indochinese tiger fall into the lower weight ranges for tigers. Bengals & Siberian tigers being the "biggies." In fact - the Siberian tiger is the largest of the big cats! When it comes to strength - size is definitely a factor!

2. It depends on what part of the animal you're talking about. While the tiger may be larger - as Dave was saying recently - lions are built for confrontation! They are more powerfully built on the front end - with a more massive head & a huge mane to protect its neck.

So - I'm going with the LION on this question.

P.S. Been trying to snag a video of actual combat between a lion & a tigers. So much nerding to do ... so little sleep! Laughing


Vlad, Abby and everyone, I found a combat video between a lioness and a tiger on Google. I've had this for a few days and have really wrestled with the ideal of posting this or not for a number or reasons. First there is no information that comes with the video, the narriation is in Japanese but I think you'll see it's a *set up* fight between the animals and probably money was bet on the outcome. I want to state that in no way, shape form or fashion do I agree with people setting up fights between any animals for money or monatary gain. Staged fights between animals is nothing whatsoever like it would be in their natural habitats, with a staged fight you have the animals in an enclosure, forced to defend themselves, with no where to run and escape, so the outcome is death for one or maybe both, It's cruel, it's inhumane, and any person that does this cannot have a heart. If you choose to watch this video please be advised that is will break your heart, the close ups of the lioness and tigers eyes are heart wrenching. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
About the video, at the end, you will have to decide which animal won the fight, the tiger or the lion. After everyone watches I'll post my thoughts on the winner.

Warning: Do not watch this video if you are easily disturbed with animal fights, there is blood involved.
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kellieg1979
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That was a Good post. It did bother me, but like you said it had to be set up for another MONEY thing. I don't agree in any way shape or form, with it, but people do things like that. Its sickens me to see something like that, but Good post. I caught myself about to cry on some parts of it and almost turned it off, but I had to see what happened.
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tigerallied
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
thanks for the post bvjmama2 ... not gona comment about the fact that that was a set up fight (you can see the flashes from time to time) it was painful to watch

anyway on the tiger vs lion fight ...I will go whit a lion ...there was this show on discovery chanel called "beast wars" or something like that in wich they put (virtualy and computer animation) head to head a tiger versus a lion.... and the lion win .... Confused


Last edited by tigerallied on Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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abby9ak
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That show was called "Animal Face-Off".Thats what I baced it on Very Happy thats sick .Why do people do that?Its just Like the Chiken fights that they have in Florida.Fighting animals should be Outlawed Exclamation thanks for the link bvjmama2 Very Happy
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Leopard
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
that a cool show.i love animal face off Very Happy thanks for sharing the video on the lion and tiger fight thats sad that people do that stuff to poor animals
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Alex
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
bvjmama2 I agree this is artificially generated or "staged". Even if this was an accident it does not matter. If it did not occur naturally then it provides little value in my opinion for determining anything. Even if this was used to provide some indication of whether Tigers are stronger the Lions there are still way too many unknown variables that are not accounted for in this video. I can think of many right now: e.g. the health, size, age, sex, etc. and not to mention the surroundings or who's territory this fight took place on -- was it the Tiger's or the Lions ? I know the answer but these are considerations in my opinion that just make this nothing more than "gruesome entertainment" for some people (not members here) and I don't want to entice this kind of thinking. I KNOW that was NOT your intention and most of us here are mature enough to understand these things. The fact is many visitors (not members of this forum) may not understand the message here.

I give you HUGE HUGE HUGE points for having the courage to post something controversal (your discaimer was perfect by the way). Intent is what's important to me so anything that's controversal is fair game, but it just may not "remain" posted in the forum for any extended period of time.

I come from the school of thought that ANY artifically created circumstances should "by default" receive a higher level of scrutiny, and that data obtained from the misfortunes of any living thing should rarely be used to make any determination such as this, or to further science for that matter.

There are other considerations as well that I won't mention here that deal with the site that hosts this video. I simply don't have time to investigate what the site's true intentions are.

Thanks for understanding Very Happy I also understand that a lot of this is my opinion and may not necessarily reflect how everyone feels here. I'm open to any PMs regarding this.




..........


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bvjmama2
African Leopard
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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex, thanks for understanding my intent on this and I would like to offer and apology to anyone who thought I meant it as otherwise. I would never want anyone to think Tigerhomes encourages or promotes this type of thing. My true intentions in posting the link was that I had hopes that this would be an eye opener to anyone out there who feels that fighting animals for money, or any type of monatary gain is an acceptable sport, will think again and realize that this is animal cruelty in one of it's most gruesome forms. At some point in each of our lives we hear the question which is stronger, the lion or the tiger, which is *meaner*, the pitbull or the rottwiler, which is fastest the cheetah or the leopard, etc. As a parent and pet owner, I have a *golden rule* that I have taught my children, if you don't like it, if it hurts you, then it feels the same way to the animal. The moment I saw the cage the tiger and lion were in the video I knew this was a staged fight. I want everyone who reads this but especially our younger viewers to realize that these animals weren't fighting because they were *mad* at each other, they weren't fighting because of a dominant issue, they were fighting cause they were forced to fight, because they were scared, confused and animal instincts are fight or die. As Alex stated earlier, this is no comparison to the way it would be out in their natural enviroment, this is a man made set up with no winners, and the thing that makes my blood turn to ice is that two beautiful animals had to lose their life for no reason whatsoever, no point was proven, no facts presented. The same goes for the cock fights, or chicken fights as Abby called them, dog races, turtles races or anything that involves the animals haveing to perform in an unnatural way. I have heard people say, but they are just animals, they don't feel the way we do, but they are oh so wrong! I challenge anyone to prove to me that any animal from the smallest insect to the largest creature alive does not feel, pain, fear, confusion etc. Take a cat for instance, you step on it's tail, it will cry out, look at you with a big question mark in it's eye wondering why you did that and then it will either run away if it can or it will turn and defend it's self. To me the saddest thing about this video is that neither animal had a choice, in the wild, they may have come upon each other but turned and went the other way but the way it was they didn't have a choice, it was fight or die.
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Alex
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
bvjmama2 Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

You wrote:To me the saddest thing about this video is that neither animal had a choice, in the wild, they may have come upon each other but turned and went the other way but the way it was they didn't have a choice, it was fight or die.

Well said!
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abby9ak
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
that what you said about them not having a choice thats very true!They were forced into fighting witch is not right at all!Its just like when they breed a lion and a tiger.(if it is the animals choice to fight than let nature take its course)but when a animal is forced to fight ...that just makes me MAD!
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tigerdave
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jason and i have seen our share of fights between tigers and let me just say this it is not FUN TO WATCH and you are helpless and next to impossible to break up !!! And in the wild they do have a chances to at least run away but caged up there is no places to run and they will fight until one is dead or they are both to hurt to continue !!! We have had Marcan and Clarance get into once here at the Sanctuary by mistake of course and J and I were helpless and could barly watch and there was blood and fur flying everywhere and let me just say this it was not something you ever want to see again !!! And of course both are OK and their wound were bad and we were able after they were getting tired and feeling themself being hurt that they stop and went to the other ends of the habitats to catch their breath before going back at it which gave us the chance to knock one down and to get the other one to go into the lock down by using a Fire Ext. !!! Jason and i looked at each other and said WOW glade that is over and that was one of the worst fights we have seen and trust me we have seen alot of them over the years !!! Now the next day both Marcan and Clarance were doing great with holes in their head and holes in their necks and a few other puncture holes and claw marks on their bodys but they healed right up like nothing and to this day they still will fight if they ever have the chance again ! Right now Loki wants Ikas so bad and if they get the chance they will also fight which by the way Loki will most likely kill Ikas if he get that chance !!!

And i did watch the video and what I saw was both the lion and tiger got tired and from what I could tell neither one shouldv'ed died !!! These Cats are built to take a beating and all the wounds will heal right up but in the wild they could get infected and then that could kill them !!!

anyway wanted to share that little story with you guys and to lets you know these are are hard core huge ANIMALS and they do not like other males and if given the chance by mistake or on purpose and fight will happen !!!

Gypsy was with Sharikon and Sharikon hurt Gypsy so bad that she was in a puddle of blood and could not move and when i walk out there I almost died to see poor Gypsy with her eyes rolled back in her heads and her tail almost complety ripped off and her neck had holes you could put both your hands in and well you know the ending to this yes I was able to save her and she spent about 7 weeks in my garage and lost over 125 pounds and months of rehab to where she was able to hold her head straight and was scared of her own shadow and that why she is with Clarance the gentle giant and Clarance was with another Golden tiger that I shipped back to where I got her (which was where she was born and to this day doing great ) and that the story of why gypsy is with Clarance and not with Marcan and Sharikon like it was suspose to be !!! And yes Gypsy was with them for over a year with no problem until that day which I will never ever forget !!! This is why I always say TIGERS are TIGERS and that what they do best !!!!

Any way fights with these big cats are not a pretty sight i can tell you that first hand !!!
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hazelmharris1
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OMG....dave thats just awful..i didnt know that about gypsy but im sure it was just terrible to see and hopeless too coz theres nothing you can do to stop it....and i must say you and jason are very brave men to have gone in there with marcan and clarence......neither of you would have stood a chance against any of them....but years of being around these animals you know what is the right thing and the wrong thing to do and you dont want to see any of them getting hurt..and certainly not fighting..so you do whatever you have to do or are able to do at that time..and its a great thing that you did for gypsy..you saved her and you must be very proud that you was able to..it just goes to show that you are extrememly dedicated to your animals and will do whatever it takes..its because of people like you thats these animals get the life they deserve..im sure you would much rather they be in the wild like all of us would but they are not... they are under your care and a fine job you do of it everyday..

I havent watched the lioness..tiger fight video and from what i have read i am glad i didnt..it didnt sound very nice at all.wat the heck were these people thinking to even have a staged fight like that i do not know..human intervention yet again and it makes me so mad...in the wild these 2 animals wouldnt even meet let alone fight...there are some great posts in here that i have read and it just goes to show we are all thinking the same things..This fighting is wrong..wrong..we all love animals and none of us want to see this kind of thing happening anywhere..but there are good people of the world that do things about it..we have all watched it on tv and the horrors that these people have to deal with everyday..its just awful.

At the end of the day it doesnt matter who would win..they are both beautiful..strong..majestic creatures..and very powerful and do what they do to survive in this world the same as humans do..only they dont kill for the fun of it..they kill to survive and they are both equal beautys and they are both kings in their own right and in their own territories..May they both live for a very very long time...I sure hope so..
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tigerdave
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No we did not run in there we had to wait for a chance to do are thing ! We darted Marcan from outside and Clarance we got to lock up with the Fire Ext. ! you can not ever try and break a fight up by going in there because you will get hurt or killed for sure !!! but there are things you can do and with J and i we have so much experience and have everything you need to do the best job you can to try and stop it !!!

Yes these things are always bad but this is what happen when dealing with these Large cats that most people don't realize ! Yes Gypsy was sad and i did not see that fight I found her like in the morning at around 6:00 am but as long as she was breathing I knew she would make it i never thought for a minute she would die !!! It's easy to heal wounds and stitch them up and stuff like that when you know whats wrong but it when you are guessing what is wrong is what I hate !!! We did have problem with her with infections which made it harder for her to heal but we were on her around the clock she just had hole in her everywhere and long gashes and at the time I was using Dr Patterson (now retired)and he was my Vet and he came out here almost everyday to check on her and we slowly pull her around and got her back on her feet but that was the worst injuries i have had to deal with so far with any of the Cats and boy was that an ordeal but with a happy ending !!! Gyspy does love me and this is one reason why I have a special bond with her and why she is so awesome and easy to deal with !!! we brought her back from death !!!

this is not for just anyone that for sure and you must be level headed and able to deal with things when things go wrong !!! I can't tell you how many times I call Jason and say the tigers got into a fight and it's real bad and he comes here and takes a look and says oh that not to bad lets stitch them up and lets call dr. Kramer !!! hehe !!! We are so Jaded from years of this that there is nothing we can't deal with no matter what happens and there is nothing we have not seen before either here or with all the other Sanctuaries we have worked at or been involved with !!! We both have a medical box that is full to the rime with everything you can think of !!!

Yes we make it look easy but it is not that for sure when it comes to having these awesome big Cats ! matter of fact Marcan and Clarance were back on cameras after a few days or so after their fight and you guys did not even notice they were hurt or anything that how tough these big Cats are and how fast they can heal depending on where they are injured !!! hehe !!!
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abby9ak
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
does anyone have a guess for questions #3,11?or do you guys need more of a hint?
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hazelmharris1
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
And thats exactly what im talking about..the intelligence..the level headedness..the experience you guys have got are just great and that is why you are able to do what you do for your animals......there are many people that dont have it and think they can take care of exotic animals and they are wrong....it takes so much more to do look after them properly...a lot of people think animals are dumb and that isnt right at all....gypsy like you say has a special bond with you because she remembers what you did for her..now that to me is very intelligent and she will be eternally grateful to you as we all will because we get to watch her on the webcams...and you wont find this anywhere else on the internet...you have a special story for each and every animal and truly that is something...
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A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

D. H. Lawrence
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BarbaraJ
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:52 pm    Post subject: Animal Fighting Reply with quote
What an incredible story from Dave - thank you so much for sharing that with us. It had to be heartbreaking for you to see them doing that to each other and you and Jason just have to wait until there's an opportunty to intervene or it's all over and then you mend their wounds.

I'm glad that Alex took out the link to the video mentioned (or at least I can't see the link, I guess). I would have visions of the lion and tiger being forced to try and kill each other. I can't imagine that Discovery Channel would air something like this - Animal Face-Off. What's the point to such a show?????
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