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Big Cat Interbreeding
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BarbaraJ
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:56 pm    Post subject: Big Cat Interbreeding Reply with quote
A friend sent this link to me Exclamation Can it be true? Why would anyone breed the lions and tigers this way? I'm confused but maybe the world is crazier than I thought Question Exclamation

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/liger.asp#photo

Dave, your thoughts would be most appreciated.

Barbara
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Alex
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: Animal Species Interbreeding Reply with quote
Hey guys I had to delete a ton of posts here because we all started talking about other stuff. I saved your posts below that were relevant here. Midnight was new and we were all so excited but we went way off course..

I'd like to discuss this topic Barbj submitted a while back. I have an interesting graphical table I am working on that I will post here soon. It displays Pumaguar, Tigard, Marozi, Jagulep and many others I never even knew existed until I started this. It's all very sad in my opinion but definately something worthwhile to disccuss here. Interestingly some of this is rumored to occur naturally in the wild! I'll provide more details as I dig into this some more.


Tigerdave Wrote:
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Well we have of course seen them and we have even taken care of a few here at the sanctuary for some people ! But J and I are both against breeding Lions and tigers together and don't understand the point of doing it and never will !!!


gb3llma Wrote:
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Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be. I'm with you guys on this one. Looking at those pics (thanks, Barb!) I gotta wonder if they were feeding this one steroids as well. Geez....what an 'Arnold' He's beautiful, of course, but I have to ask WHY WHY WHY??


Tigerdave Wrote:
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They do grow bigger then normal and can weigh about 1000 pounds but I ask that same question WHY WHY WHY ???


LEMUR-J Wrote:
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To us breeding a Lion and a Tiger is nothing more then Genetic Polution! Makes me sick especially since Tigers are an Endangered Species! By the way, that article states that a Liger is a "Species". It is NOT! It is a hybrid and nothing more then a way for facilities that are "Open To The Public" to create ticket sales. The most important thing any breeding program can do for an Endangered Species is to preserve as much "Genetic Variation" as possible and breeding a lion to a tiger is worse then breeding siblings together. I love how they called it an accident! HA! Unfortunitly Liger and Tigons are nothing new and it has been known for a long time that by crossbreeding these species it creates HUDGE animals! This is why Ligers make good attractions to the general ignorant public!
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kitty24
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Interbreeding-Tigers and Lions Reply with quote
Hey, just thought I'd put in what I had found on this. I have alot of pics on my computer of these, but like someone else said, they are beautiful animals, but if they don't occur naturally, WHY???

Liger

The liger is a cross between a male lion and a female tiger. It is therefore a member of genus Panthera. It looks like a giant lion with diffused tiger stripes. Like tigers (and unlike lions), ligers like swimming.

A cross between a male tiger and a female lion is called a tigon.

Known ligers exist due to human influence, either by deliberate human intervention, or by humans putting lions and tigers in enclosed spaces together. In natural conditions tigers and lions generally do not inhabit the same territory - the two species coexist in the wild today only in the Gir forest of India although their respective ranges used to intersect in Persia, China and perhaps also Beringia. Even where they do coexist, there have been no confirmed reports of interbreeding, though there are long-standing claims that this has happened.

Ligers grow much larger than tigers or lions and it is believed this is because female lions transmit a growth-inhibiting gene to their descendants to balance the growth-promoting gene transmitted by male lions. Being the offspring of a male lion and female tiger, the liger inherits the growth-promoting gene, but does not have the growth-inhibiting gene and typically grows larger than either animal; this is called Growth dysplasia. Some male ligers grow sparse manes.
Male ligers are sterile. Female ligers are often fertile and can be mated to a tiger resulting in ti-liger offspring or to a lion resulting in li-liger offspring.

Like your post said Alex, there have been rumours of this happening in the wild, but no CONFIRMED reports. I just don't see it happening naturally, but you never know with Mother Nature. If it does, it should stay that way, and the humans need to just butt out and let it occur naturally. That is just my opinion on the subject. Great post though for sure!
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kristiemiller79
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know if you all have seen this site, but it has a LOT of info about the Ligers along with other inbreeding that you might be interested in reading about.

http://www.bigcatrescue.org/ligers.htm

Great post BarbaraJ! They are HUGE animals and very beautiful, but I just don't see the point in people doing this. The world is ALL about MONEY, that's what it comes down to.
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BarbaraJ
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Inbreeding Reply with quote
Thanks for "cleaning us up" Alex Laughing Really looking forward to the table you're working on - sure it will be jam packed with info.

Yep, the almighty $ is the bottom line. But what about the animals? People who prosper from inbreeding just don't care or don't understand that this is so incredibly wrong.
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vlad
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for that link Kristie! Great post! Very Happy I agree with you, Barbara & others! This isn't good for the cats! It is all about the $$$$! Mad

After seeing one on T.V. - I looked up a bunch of them on the web - but I thought most of them just looked really strange - even grotesque! So when you said they were beautiful - I decided to go back for another look! It is true - some of them are gorgeous! This gal here is a real beauty!

http://www.cattales.org/Kimber.html

Most of the ones that I had seen - looked more like this:

http://www.sierrasafarizoo.com/animals/liger.htm

Here's another site that does some in-depth exploration of hybrid big-cats:

http://members.aol.com/jshartwell/hybrid-bigcats.html

They noted that in addition to the physical problems - hybrids can suffer emotional and behavioral problems:

"As well as partial fertility and growth dysplasia, some hybrid big cats exhibit emotional or behavioural conflicts due to their mixed ancestry. They may also inherit different or mixed vocabularies (tigers "chuff", lions roar). Hybrids inherit different, sometimes conflicting, behavioural traits from the two parent species. A purebred mother may also become confused by her hybrid offspring's unusual behaviour. Lions rarely climb trees or play in water. A lioness who produced leopon (leopard x lioness) cubs was reportedly distressed by her offspring's tendency to climb trees and play in water. These traits were inherited from their leopard father. Tigons may also inherit a fascination with water to the distress or confusion of their lioness mother.

How much of their behaviour is due to conflicting instincts and how much is due to abnormal hormones or the stress of captive conditions is not fully known.
"

P.S. I can't wait to see the page that TIGERHOMES puts up! Go Alex!

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Alex
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Big Cats Interbreeding Table Reply with quote
Well nothing really exciting but I wanted to have a reference table up here so I recreated one from a book small enough to post here. I found this little fact book the other day and I liked the way they broke this down.



I find it interesting that a female Caracal and a male Serval makes a Servical, BUT when you look at the table it shows a male Caracal and a female Serval makes a Caracal -- huh ???? LOL! Very Happy Is it possible they made a mistake here ? I'll ask Jason about this.


.....
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tigerdave
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
that's a mistake !!!
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Alex
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Should be Caraval -- I just updated it -- not their fault. I just missed that one.
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tigerdave
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
yes that's it !!! And I have seen them both many times !!!
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kitty24
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:09 pm    Post subject: Interbreeding animals Reply with quote
Hey Alex, I actually came across some more when I went out on the net and here are afew. I also included the link in case anyone wanted to see pictures.

Quote:
Leopon- Result of breeding a male leopard to a female lion.

Manchurian/Siberian Tiger- Result of breeding a Manchurian Tiger with a Siberian Tiger.

Jaglion- Result of breeding a Jaguar with a Lion.

Chausie Cat- Result of breeding a Jungle Cat with a Domesticated Cat.

Pumapard- Result of breeding a Puma with a Leopard.

Bengal Cat- Result of breeding a domesticated Cat and the wild Asian Leopard Cat.


Here's the link and there are other animals listed also!

http://www.greenapple.com/~jorp/amzanim/crossesa.htm

This is not a joke and these animals really exist, whether it be by man's intervention or a "Freak" act of nature!!
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hazelmharris1
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Omg kitty great post....i just had a look and some of those pictures are unbelievable....it looks pretty obvious which ones man interfered with....i mean a domestic horse and a zebra cmon and as for the experiment with the elephant...the mother had a rough time of it and then the poor baby died. My when are these people gonna learn to stop messing with mother nature.
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vlad
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hazel,

I agree with you & Kitty! Also - I believe that it would be GREAT if that same time & energy was used to preserve & protect the animals we already have instead of engaging in these bizarre experiments that ultimately produce animals with problems! Confused

One trend that I became aware of a few months ago was that of blending domestic felines and wild ones to create hybrids. Like some of the other - they are pretty - but still there is the question that Laura posed in her statement "Just because it CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be." Why are we doing this!? Good point! I think the answer is $$$$$$ Twisted Evil

Here's an interesting article on that trend with comments on some of the problems presented when we breed wild & domestic cats and take them into our households.

The pet trade has long fed off of our fascination with wild animals - and there is one predicatable outcome, in most cases - the animals end up suffering!

Note: This article & all content is copywrited - so I can't post anything from it - but here's a link:

http://www.arkanimals.com/ark/ws_feline_cat_hybrids.html

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kitty24
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Arkanimals website info Reply with quote
Wow! You always seem to amaze me Sister,Val! You are so good at finding this info and I love it! That was a great post and I really enjoyed the link you provided. There is also a place on there where you can click on Animal Careers and it gives all kinds of advice and tips for people who may be thinking of going into a career of working with animals, and I thought that was great. Keep it up,girl, You're doing an awesome job!! Laughing
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gb3llma
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:26 pm    Post subject: Lost in cyberspace Reply with quote
Oh WOW! I agree 100% with kitty......Val, that is a great link! You sure do come up with some great ones. Smile I just lost over a half of an hour in cyberspace reading up on animal behaviours....lemur, clouded leopard......then realized that I was still hooked in here to the forum Surprised Embarassed I saw that career link too! This one went into favorites to get back to for sure.

GREAT reference table Alex! I already snagged it for my files. (Thank you Cool ) Seems that humankind simply cannot resist tinkering around with Mother Nature. Much to our shame. Just because it can be done............ Exclamation Exclamation

(Spending some time in the forum here catching up on posts tonight while hoping for some word on what's happening at the sanctuary. Let the news be good......OK I know it'll be a while but I just can't help but keep checking!!)
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